This week we look at the psychology behind the foundation of LuLaRoe and other MLMs, including ideas like deceptive recruitment and “lovebombing.”
This week we look at the psychology behind the foundation of LuLaRoe and other MLMs, including ideas like deceptive recruitment and “lovebombing.” Steven Hassan, founder of the Freedom of Mind Resource Center, will break down the mind control tactics built into the recruitment and social control of MLM participants, and how they overlap with cult tactics. We’ll also talk about questions you can ask yourself - and the red flags to look out for - if you’re being recruited by an MLM.
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Find episode transcript here: https://the-rise-and-fall-of-lularoe.simplecast.com/episodes/ep5-the-psychology-of-mlms
Episode 5: The Psychology of MLMs
THEME IN
Intro
Stephanie: Hi everyone! This is The Rise and Fall of LulaRoe. I’m your host, Stephanie McNeal - I’m a senior culture reporter at Buzzfeed News. And in this podcast we are diving deep into the world of LulaRoe - we speak with retailers who were impacted by these schemes. We also talk to experts who can shed light on how these MLMs work...including the red flags you should keep an eye out for.
This week, I’m talking to cult expert Steven Hassan [HASS-an] about the psychology behind MLMs and how MLMs can apply cult tactics with recruiting and sustaining members. Hassan is a cult expert and founder of the Freedom of Mind Resource Center, which helps people leave cults and recover from them.
Let’s get into it.
THEME OUT
Stephanie [00:00:25] //Stephen, thank you so much for joining us. I am so excited to talk to you about all things cults and multilevel marketing.
Steven: Pleasure
Stephanie [00:00:41]So we are really excited to kind of dig into the psychology behind LuLaRoe and other MLMs like it. And I'm so excited to have you on because you have such a great background and depth of knowledge in this subject. So for those listeners who might not know you've been speaking on cults and mind control for a long time, you founded an organization called the Freedom of Mind Resource Center, which has focused on this topic. // can you explain how did you get involved in studying cults and mind control?
Steven [00:01:22]Well, as many listeners might guess, I actually had a cult experience back in the 70s. I was a college student and my girlfriend dumped me and I was sitting in the student union at Queens College, and three Moonie recruiters pretending just to be students flirted with me. And that began my odyssey into a right wing fascist cult, which I spent over two years. I became fanatical. I dropped out of college and cut off from my family and friends because they were critical of my involvement and said I was brainwashed and due to a falling asleep due to sleep deprivation and a near-fatal van crash, I surfaced // And my sister lured me to her house to see my nephew, who had been born. And they did a deprogramming, // And by the end of the five days, I realized I had been brainwashed //and I was so embarrassed and so ashamed and so confused and so depressed and so hurt that I just wanted to understand what happened to me. // but I never expected to be doing this work 45 years later. But here I am, because the problem is so huge and the age we're living in right now is mind control on steroids through the internet, and everybody needs to understand this material to protect themselves, protect society, protect their family and friends.
Stephanie [00:03:50]What a fascinating story, and I think it's so great that you were able to take this troubling experience that you had and turn around and really become an expert and help others. // So what is the connection between cults and mind control and their tactics and MLMs? I know you've called MLMs commercial cults. So what do you mean by that?
Steven [00:06:13] // MLMs, I call a commercial cult because people tend to join them or get involved because they think they're going to make a lot of money. So there's the monetary thing. But I also want to state categorically that trafficking sex trafficking as well as labor trafficking is also a commercial cult. and where those lines become very clear with destructive cultism or authoritarian cultism is in four overlapping criteria, which I refer to as the BITE model of authoritarian control and the B of Bite stands for behavior control. I stands for information control. The T stands for thought control and the E stands for emotional control // But just to give your listeners a gist, for example, if a group is controlling sleep and saying you need to sleep less or having all night meetings, this is a big red flag for a mind control or unhealthy cult. If a group is setting out very rigid rules and recommendations on what you wear, what you eat, who you associate with so you can go down the entire list of behavior control mechanisms. But the theme of all behavior control is obedience, instilling dependency and obedience. //
Stephanie [00:12:56] // What are some of the main similarities that you see with MLMs and what people traditionally think of cults? Because I think when we talk about this compare and contrast a lot of times, people. Say things like how is an MLM a cult, because, you know, they're thinking of these very famous religious cults. But then when do you actually get down to the nuts and bolts there are a lot of interesting similarities between the tactics used in both.
Steven [00:13:32] // If you're in a mind control cult, you're taught that youre chosen, you're special and that everyone else is in darkness, depending on what type of cult it is that might have religious overtures like Satan is out there. And I know that the founders are Mormons, so we can talk about religion to a certain extent when we're talking about this particular group, right? But. So. For example, when you have that kind of black and white, all or nothing us versus them mentality that I put under thought control. And then if you're told don't talk to X members or critics, they’re dream stealers or they're out to destroy you. Or they want to suck you back into the world of J-O-B-S, you know, jobs, that evil thing, et cetera. So they encourage people to do information control and only read and listen to and spend your time with what the cult wants you to listen to. //But this kind of information control is not healthy at all. // And that's a very dramatic example of MLM mind control is is not only the deception that you're going to make a ton of money when in fact most people over 99 percent lose money. But all these other things are going to happen as well. // And my whole approach is just educational and empowering people to figure out for themselves if this group is serving them and what they thought they wanted to get involved with and to educate them about social psychology knowledge, as well as teach them about other groups because it's always easier to see it in another group than the one that you're in. //
Stephanie [00:18:44] What parts of the BITE model that you mentioned do you really see shining through in the way that MLMs like LulaRoe recruit people?
Steven [00:19:05]Well, the deceptive recruitment, obviously, and deception isn't just outright lying, but it's withholding vital information like pretending that you have a very expensive car when you don't or pretending you have an expensive watch. When it's a knock off those types and those misrepresentations of how much money you can make for how much time. That is a huge red flag. And I want your listeners to understand, you know, if something is legitimate, it will stand up to scrutiny. So you want to ask questions, very direct questions, and you don't want to just depend on the recruiter for information. You want to talk to critics and former members // So the the deception and the information control is absolutely huge. There's also this this dream that all cult members, destructive cult members are given and there are different dreams for different cults. But the idea that you're going to be so happy and so fulfilled by doing this so that you create this fantasy in your head, //and then self-regulate to get rid of any negatives that are in there to have fears that if they give up the dream, terrible things are going to happen to them. They're going to be a failure. You know, their husband will never love them, their children will never respect them. The planet is going to fall apart. // if a group is healthy and you're in it and you're not happy or you're spending more time than you want to spend. You're not making them you say bye. And it's no sweat. And there's no worry and there's no pressure coming at you from the members or shunning, which is another destructive mind control technique of your best friend. All of a sudden, now you're a turncoat because you're no longer involved with the group. //
Stephanie [00:22:28] // I love what you said about normal businesses can stand up to scrutiny. They might not be happy to have a bad press release out there, but they won't completely fold under. That's probably a bad sign. // you know I think a lot of people who join an MLM like LuLaRoe, they don't know a lot about this stuff and they don't really realize what's happening until it's too late. So what are some things that people can do if they're being recruited on Facebook by a friend from high school to join a group? What are some smart questions they can ask or Google to get a better sense of if the business is legitimate or not?
Steven [00:23:11]// I recommend strongly that you have a circle of trustworthy friends who don't share all your religious views, who don't share all your political views. What we call contrarians people who will poke you. Hey, Stephanie, you said you did this, and now I'm seeing that. Like, what's up? But if they're friends and they have your best interests, you know you're going to want to hear what they have to say, right? So that said, once you have a network, a trust pod is a term that I like to refer to it. Use your common sense. And if something sounds too good to be true, then assume that it is too good to be true. //And then ask the hard questions. Is this a pyramid scheme or a multi-level marketing group? Because I get pitched by people, sometimes even from former clients who should know better. Steve, can I get half an hour of your time? I have this wonderful business opportunity I want to share with you. Business opportunity, what's what's the name? Oh, I'll tell you when I see you, no I want to know the name now. So now I'm demonstrating for your listeners. You want to ask direct questions. And if you get an evasive answer or switch the subject or turn it around on me, Steve, don't you trust me? We've known each other our whole life. It's like, No, I just I want to know what you're selling and whether it's something, you know, objectively, something that I might be interested in.
Stephanie [00:27:52] // So just so people get a really good sense of what it would be like to be recruited into an MLM. I was wondering if you had any experience or ideas of things that people might say to you, almost like a role playing thing if they were trying to recruit you into an MLM, like in your experience, what would our listeners hear from someone trying to recruit them into an MLM that should raise their heckles a little bit?
Steven [00:28:44] So it all depends on who's recruiting you. If it's someone you know, you're going to be more susceptible to their their pressure and they'll know you better. So they'll know what buttons to press um, but not saying upfront what the name of the group is, but talking generally about a business opportunity. Or, you know, you could be making a lot more money with your time and that sort of thing. Flashing jewelry, mentioning their car and how they're, you know, going to their yacht, you know, to go fishing, you know, maybe sometime you can come along. It's like this is not in the realm of normal. And then the whole the whole notion of incremental disclosure is something that I want people to understand. So, you know, if I say to somebody, it sounds like you have something you want to share with me, I'll give you three minutes, give me the most essential things in three minutes, and then they'll say, Oh, I can't do that. It's much too much to share. And I'm like, Well, bye. if you cant summarize in three minutes, then I'm not interested. That's a really good, effective thing. Also // there's a trust thing that you you tend to be more susceptible to influence the people that you identify with, people that you like, people that you share a religious faith with. So. I would just say anything, anything that if you're a religious person, that's that smacks of deception is automatically bad. Like just understand that, you know, God doesn't need to lie. OK.
Stephanie [00:31:41]Absolutely.
Steven [00:31:43] // But then if you do the numbers and and this is another thing to ask, by the way, a recruiter. Show me your IRS forms for the last three years and then I'll believe you that you've made all this money because they will never share their tax returns. Never, ever.
Stephanie [00:32:28] And I think too, if you're joining a company and you're so suspicious that you want to ask for the tax return, that probably is another red flag. I got to say
Steven [00:32:38]yeah, but again, I want to. I want to give the benefit of the doubt. But if you're suspecting it's an MLM and people are pitching you how much money they're making every year because they got involved. Prove it.
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Stephanie [00:32:56]So obviously, getting someone recruited into an MLM is just the beginning. Once they are in the MLM, there are all of these other tactics that are done to keep them under control and prop up the scheme. So what are some tactics that you've seen MLMs use to keep people in their orbit and kind of believing their hype?
Steven [00:33:25]This is a bigger subject, but I'll name it for the purposes of this interview, and that is the internet and smartphones. And then the pandemic on top of it has created a perfect storm where we're being bombarded by information. And if there are bad actors, cults have resources. They can literally buy your profile on the dark web and know 5000 data points on what you're interested in, what you're not interested in, what what political party are affiliated with, what your favorite food is, etc. So they can already orchestrate with A.I. assistants, // What are the likely kinds of messages that's going to affect Stephanie to get to that next step, to the next commitment, to the next commitment and to the next commitment? and the greed of if I just get a big down line, I'll make money. So it's done to you and then you do it to other people. I call it the victim victimizer model. You know, that's another feature of great concern. I guess what I want to say to people when you're in a situationally a vulnerable moment in your life and all humans have these, like death of a loved one. Divorce, graduation, losing a job, moving to a new city, state or country. Leaving out traumas like sexual assault or, you know, addictions and other things like that. When things are happening like that in your life, that's the time we have to be extra special careful for yourself and your friends and your trust pod to make sure you're not committing to anything without a really thorough investigation. //
Stephanie [00:36:21] // once people are in an MLM, what are some psychological tactics that the leaders of MLMs use to make them feel like they aren't just in a business, they are in something much greater? //
Steven [00:36:47]there's a whole area in the E of the BITE model, emotional control // there's this force with cult leaders often described as charisma that's actually learnable. And and there are people teaching how to be effective and how to be powerful, how to control the room you're in. And it has. There's really a lot to it, including how you hold your posture and where you are in the actual spatial outlines of the room and how you make eye contact. The extended handshake // That's a whole nother part of this phenomenon, which refers to hypnosis, and I don't mean the stage hypnotist stuff where they make people cluck like chickens. // I'm talking a much more sophisticated, process oriented. What's often referred to as NLP or neuro linguistic programing type techniques like mirroring your breathing or or using the words that you use back on you to motivate you to buy or to get involved, et cetera. So there's all these these powerful influence techniques that leaders learn, many of them on courses, on videos or in books, but they want to encourage awe and fervor // But there's this emotional dysregulation that happens when we have awe and a lot of these cults, especially MLMs, they have these conventions and they hire famous people who don't even believe in the product, but they pay them a lot of money. But it gives the illusion of support for the thing and the testimonials and the music and the temperature. Everything is regulated for maximum effect. So. The most powerful control a cult leader can have is over someone's imagination. And if you can get people to identify with you and project their goodness onto you, they'll follow you anywhere. //
Stephanie [00:40:30]Is that kind of what you would call love bombing? That's something that I've heard some people mention.
Steven [00:40:35]So it's love projection. //Love bombing is more of a group // process to make you feel overwhelmed and special. Oh Stephanie, you're so wonderful, you're so smart and you're so attractive and you're so accomplished and this and that. But it's done as a group online. It's called swarming and the swarm around you of welcome to the family. You know you're going to be so glad you've done this, but it's often bots. It's not even real people. And and the way destructive cults like to recruit people too especially online is they like to put somebody in that person's circle pretending to be a newbie like them with doubts. So that when they say I'm going to commit, I'm going, you're going to join me to the person is much more likely to follow that person.
Stephanie [00:41:58]Wow, that's fascinating. // So I think a lot of people when they. First start seeing the red flags in their MLM. It's really hard for them to imagine leaving because at this point, their job and their MLM has become so much of their life and their identity. So what is some advice you would have to someone who might be in an MLM and wants to leave but can't imagine their life outside of one?
Steven [00:43:31]The good news is there are former members who have excellent websites and YouTube channels where they're they're putting it out there and they're describing their journey and start listening and learning. // Take a time out. You know, people get on this, this this hamster wheel where they're working too many hours, they're not sleeping eight hours a night. And sleep deprivation is the universal mind control technique or one of them anyway. And I really encourage people to take a break. Turn off the phone. Take a few days off, walk in the woods, play with with puppies and children and things that make you happy. Listen to your favorite music and dance But then what I recommend beyond taking the time out is study models of brainwashing and mind control //and think back to when you were first approached and were any of these techniques used. And do you remember your first thoughts or feelings at the beginning? // you have wisdom inside you and you should listen to yourself, you should be your own best friend. And but you also raised a very important point about how we can get stuck because we've invested so much time and energy and money in something that we we we don't stop. // People need to come back to what did they expect? And with MLMs. Aside from asking to see the the IRS records of your recruiter, I definitely recommend that you make very strong commitments to yourself about what well, you know what your timeframe is like and how much money you're willing to put into it before you exit. many people that I talk to will say, All right, I decided to give it three months. And if I'm not making money, then I'm out. OK, put that in writing, put it on your refrigerator door and don't let anyone talk you out of that. That was your line in the sand.
Stephanie [00:47:30]Yeah, I feel like that's one thing as people say, Oh, I'm going to only put this much money in and then they turn around, and all of a sudden they put in way more, and it's kind of a slippery slope. What are some things that people who spend significant amount of time in an MLM do going forward, in their personal life, in their professional life to kind of deprogram themselves from the trauma they endured while under this mind control situation?
Steven [00:47:58]Unfortunately, if people get sucked into an MLM, they're often destitute or they're bankrupt, and they may have alienated all their family and friends, hitting them up to join the MLM. And and so definitely reaching out to family and friends // and apologize // beprepared to just say. I know that you tried your best to talk me out of this or many, many times. I'm so sorry, I didn't listen to you. You were right. // So a lot of people that I work with needed to declare bankruptcy. You know, they lost their marriage because their wife left them or their husband left them. And it's a mess. But basically, you're still alive. You have a long life ahead of you, and you need to take things in small, doable chunks, including sleeping well at night and exercising and eating well and getting employment. So you make some money. So that you can, you know, have security //
Stephanie: I imagine when people leave an MLM, there are a lot of feelings of shame and loss around their experience. And I know that some of them completely discount the whole thing as not just a wash but a negative stain or trauma on their life. Do you think there any silver linings these victims could take away from these MLMs so they feel less of that shame?
Steven [00:51:32]So yes, the answer is yes. And it's a good question, because a lot of people tend to, you know, want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say everything I did in the Moonies or everything I did in my MLM, you know, it was a waste of time. But often you learn valuable things. For me, I was an introvert and I was very uncomfortable reading my poetry to a small class of 20 people. But in the Moonies, I was asked to get up and give a talk to a thousand people extemporaneously. That was a that was a skill I took out with me. I learned how to run a flower business in the group. I took that skill out with me. I learned how to eat sushi in the Moonies in 1974. I still eat sushi // So the thing is is everyone should should do an honest inventory and any good thing they should own for themselves and not attribute it to the group. They they learned it despite the group and and use it if it serves their goals.
Stephanie [00:52:54] That's so great because I feel like a lot of people that I've talked to who are in LulaRoe have such a negative view of their experience and obviously their experience was negative. But that also leads to a lot of self negativity and self-hate and self-doubt. And I think that could be really empowering for someone to be like, Look. Obviously, this was a really bad experience, but I learned how to run a business in some ways. I learned things about myself that can kind of reframe that experience and make it not just weigh on them so heavily.
Steven [00:53:26]100 percent. And you brought up another point that I'd like to share. And that is // people in their cult identity are indoctrinated to believe there's something wrong with them as opposed to the leader, the doctrine or the group. And that might mirror how they were raised. Maybe they were raised in an authoritarian family structure or cult religious group. So that requires a certain amount of sorting out. But a big part of, you know, effective healing is learning social psychology, which means taking the pressure off yourself of, you know, I'm so stupid. I can't believe I let myself be controlled this way. All this self-flagellation and put it where it deserves to be, which with the cult and the cult leader who is knowingly defrauding and implementing policies learned from other pyramid scheme, you know, MLM cults so that they make a lot of money and that they don't take accountability and change the actual structure so that it is supporting people
Stephanie [00:55:07]absolutely it's not their fault. //Ultimately, it's a learning experience. One final question for you. A lot of people, maybe some people listening to this right now, they read the LuLaRoe story. They maybe read your story about the movies and they say, Oh, I would never get sucked into a cult. I would never join an MLM like LuLaRoe. But it's a lot more people join this kind of stuff than people would think, and it happens to a lot of people from all different backgrounds and all different types of life experiences. So it's not, you know, sometimes it's really out of people's control. So why do you think that it's important that everyone, not just people who might be specifically susceptible to these kind of groups, understand and recognize?
Steven [00:56:58]Yeah, I think everyone susceptible Stephanie. I really do. And at different times of your life, you're going to be susceptible. It may not be to an MLM. It might be to just the psychopathic narcissist who's flattering you and showering you with gifts. And you want to believe somebody thinks you're the, you know, the greatest person on Earth. But I'm part of a group of former members that we're doing a hashtag IGotOut effort and the website I got out dot org. And the idea is to destigmatize the fact that human beings can be sucked into lies and manipulated by other people or groups. And // life exists after that experience. So kind of like me too hashtag me too that you're not alone. And there's many of us. There are tens of millions of ex MLMers, if not more internationally, but people are embarrassed or ashamed, or they haven't done their homework to correctly identify what happened to them. In which case they're going to be susceptible to another destructive, authoritarian cult unfortunately.
Stephanie [00:58:16]Plus, there are a lot of uh cult like things in our world right now that maybe people who say I would never join an MLM I would never be in a cult may not even recognize are a cult.
Steven [00:58:29]That's a truism. When you're in a cult, you don't. You think other groups are cults, but not yours. You think other people are brainwashed, but not you. //
Stephanie [00:58:58] Well, Stephen, this has been so interesting. Thank you so much for teaching us all about your very important work.
Steven [00:59:06]Yeah, thank you for having me.
End Credits
OUTRO
The Rise and Fall of LulaRoe is a Discovery Plus podcast.
From Discovery, our executive producer is Michael DiSalvo [Deh-Sall-vo]. From Buzzfeed, our executive producer is Karolina Waclawiak [Vahts-LAH-vee-ACK].
Special thanks to Shelley Sinha [Sin-Ha] at Discovery, Samantha Henig and Richard Alan Reid at Buzzfeed, and Pete Ross at Left/Right.
Our show is produced by Neon Hum Media. Jonathan Hirsch and Shara Morris are the executive producers. Our lead producer is Muna Danish. Associate Producer is Rufaro Faith. Our production manager is Samantha Allison. Sound design and engineering from Mark Bush. Our theme music is from Epidemic Sound.
See you next week!